OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i don't
recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some insight
or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.

Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
(disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem I
get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a 75ft
or narrower runway.

"Karl Treier" > wrote in message news:q8KDc.9690
>
> Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and

same airplane or different airplanes?

unconscious pressure on left rudder pedal?

take careful note of *exactly* what you're doing.

"Karl Treier" > wrote in message
...
> OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i
don't
> recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some
insight
> or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.
>
> Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
> almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
> (disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem
I
> get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a
75ft
> or narrower runway.

Hmmm, how about adding an 'H' to your GUMPS pre-landing checklist. It's
for making sure your heels are on the floor.

"Karl Treier" > wrote in message
...
> OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i
don't
> recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some
insight
> or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.
>
> Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
> almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
> (disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem
I
> get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a
75ft
> or narrower runway.

Any crosswind?

--Gary

as my CFI told me over and over again -
"GET ON THE BALL!"
in reference to the turn coordinator

I ran into the same problem.

now in a right rudder aircraft, when you take all the power out before
touchdown, the prop is still rotating and you still have some
p-factor, torque, etc.

During landing it is Very important to keep that ball centered. When
the CFI is not yelling at you every time the ball gets too close to
the line does not mean that it is any less important.

1. stalling above the runway is scarey enough without the added
troubes caused by being uncoordinated

2. your wheels hate being side loaded and will one day rebel.

you say "Almost Immediatly" which tells me that you are touching down
uncoordinated.

to work on this habit, and this worked for me.....

Go up to 7500 feet and practice stalls. lots and lots of stalls, Power
on and power off. keeping special watch on that turn coordinator.
soon, you will notice that when you are landing, paying attention to
the things other then the Turn Coordinator, if you glance at it, it
will be centered 100% of the time without you even thinking about it.



On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:04:19 -0400, "Karl Treier" >
spoketh unto us:

>OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i don't
>recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some insight
>or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.
>
>Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
>almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
>(disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem I
>get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a 75ft
>or narrower runway.
>
>

******************************
Patrick W. Sencenich
__|__
*---o--(_)--o---*

"I am NOT 30... i am 24.95 plus shipping and handling."

If you have a crosswind from the right, you are probably banked to the right
and ruddered to the left to hold centerline during the approach. On touchdown,
unless you consciously release rudder pressure, the plane will veer left on
touchdown.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Patrick w. Sencenich" > wrote in message
...
> During landing it is Very important to keep that ball centered. When
> the CFI is not yelling at you every time the ball gets too close to
> the line does not mean that it is any less important.
>
> 1. stalling above the runway is scarey enough without the added
> troubes caused by being uncoordinated
>
> 2. your wheels hate being side loaded and will one day rebel.

If there's a crosswind, then being uncoordinated is what *prevents* a side
load. Ignore the inclinometer; just use the ailerons to maintain your
position over the centerline, and the rudder to keep the plane pointing
straight down the runway. Without a crosswind, the result will be
coordinated flight; with a crosswind, the result will be properly
uncoordinated flight (a side slip).

--Gary

> Hmmm, how about adding an 'H' to your GUMPS pre-landing checklist. It's
> for making sure your heels are on the floor.

great. So we have
TIT = tune - identify - twist
HUMP

what's next? <grin>

Gerald

>
>
>If you have a crosswind from the right, you are probably banked to the right
>and ruddered to the left to hold centerline during the approach. On
>touchdown,
>unless you consciously release rudder pressure, the plane will veer left on
>touchdown.
>
>Jose
>
>--
>(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
>
>
If it's the same airplane, check tire pressure or if one brake is grabbing.

I have had students with that problem. It invariably results from not
keeping your heels on the floor -- the student is touching the left brake.
It is a subconcious thing. I would recommend practicing on narrow strips,
about 30 feet wide, with an instructor. Barring that, try imagining that the
runway is that narrow and that you don't want the centerline to veer off to
left or right.

Are you flying a Cessna? This used to happen to me and I couldn't figure
out what I was doing. The plane also needed a tremendous amount of right
foot while flying. We moved the maintenance to a more knowledgeable shop
which found that the little metal block in the nose gear that centers it in
flight was worn. When the nose gear was extended, the wheel was cocked and
acting like a rudder. As soon as the block was replaced, the swerve when
the nose came down went a way. The wheel was cocked when fully extended.
Until the strut was compressed enough to let the steering become effective
again, the plane was trying to follow the nose wheel.
--
Roger Long

I had a student do this yesterday. He landed with some inadvertant
left brake, because he didn't have his foot low enough on the
pedal/heel on the floor.
I think an added problem for some students in that left feet are
generally less trained (coordinated) than the right. In a car you
operate gas and brake with your right foot, and develop a keen sense
of position control/pressure control, while the left foot never gets
any training. In a standard, the left foot operates the clutch. This
is usually a "all the way to the floor" exercise with a regulated
release.

Having said all this, I think it is common for students (and newer
pilots) to experience left rudder problems such as inadvertant
braking, and over control.

Mitch - CFI




"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> I have had students with that problem. It invariably results from not
> keeping your heels on the floor -- the student is touching the left brake.
> It is a subconcious thing. I would recommend practicing on narrow strips,
> about 30 feet wide, with an instructor. Barring that, try imagining that the
> runway is that narrow and that you don't want the centerline to veer off to
> left or right.

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> > Hmmm, how about adding an 'H' to your GUMPS pre-landing checklist.
It's
> > for making sure your heels are on the floor.
>
> great. So we have
> TIT = tune - identify - twist
> HUMP
>

ROTFLMAO!!! Good one!

<<During landing it is Very important to keep that ball centered. >>

My God, no! The ball is the LAST thing you should be looking at
during a landing operation. Look outside!

<<stalling above the runway is scarey enough without the added troubes
caused by being uncoordinated>>

Stalling a few feet above the runway is no big deal.

>When the nose gear was extended, the wheel was cocked and
>acting like a rudder.

Makes you yearn for a taildragger!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

I'm surprised nobody brought this up.... Are you trying to align the axis
of the plane with the centerline of the runway? Don't. It's less than a
foot in a cessna. Align the centerline with you. If that's you're problem
then you're likely overcompensating for what the centerline should look like
while your "paralleling" it, and, as a consequence, touching down pointing a
bit to the left.... possibly perfectly coordinated. And, if you are
uncoordinated, like other posters suggest, this will help you recognize
that.

I did the exact same thing you did for a long time.

Regards



"Karl Treier" > wrote in message
...
> OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i
don't
> recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some
insight
> or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.
>
> Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
> almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
> (disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem
I
> get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a
75ft
> or narrower runway.
>
>
>

When I went from my Tri-Pacer to my Cherokee, I had the same thing
happening. I am still not sure exactly why, but over time it has gone
away.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


"Karl Treier" > wrote in message >...
> OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i don't
> recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some insight
> or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.
>
> Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
> almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
> (disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem I
> get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a 75ft
> or narrower runway.

So how about this -

you are in the left seat of a cessna.
You think you have the plane lined up , but you are actually lining up
centerline thru the spinner...so the plane is actually cocked a bit to
the left.
Touchdown , veer left.
I had this problem...had to conciously alter my perspective to lineup
a bit left of the spinner (compensate for the left seat displacement)


Pavan Bhatnagar
student pilot.

"Karl Treier" > wrote in message >...
> OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i don't
> recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some insight
> or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.
>
> Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
> almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
> (disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem I
> get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a 75ft
> or narrower runway.

An excellent observation, and probably what it actually happening.
It only takes a slight mis-alignment (due to perspective) to cause
the aircraft to veer a bit immediately after touchdown. As has been
stated, this usually passes with time.

Pavan Bhatnagar wrote:

> So how about this -
>
> you are in the left seat of a cessna.
> You think you have the plane lined up , but you are actually lining up
> centerline thru the spinner...so the plane is actually cocked a bit to
> the left.
> Touchdown , veer left.
> I had this problem...had to conciously alter my perspective to lineup
> a bit left of the spinner (compensate for the left seat displacement)
>
>
> Pavan Bhatnagar
> student pilot.

Thanks to all for the tips, I went and did some pattern work and sure enough
it was not heeling my feet coupled with some inadvertant left foot pressure.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:34:15 GMT, Greg Esres >
spoketh unto us:

><<During landing it is Very important to keep that ball centered. >>
>
>My God, no! The ball is the LAST thing you should be looking at
>during a landing operation. Look outside!
>
><<stalling above the runway is scarey enough without the added troubes
>caused by being uncoordinated>>
>
>Stalling a few feet above the runway is no big deal.


Who said anything about looking at the ball? if you are flying
coordinated, then the ball is centered, isn't it?

did you get as far as reading my statement:

"Go up to 7500 feet and practice stalls. lots and lots of stalls,
Power
on and power off. keeping special watch on that turn coordinator.
soon, you will notice that when you are landing, paying attention to
the things other then the Turn Coordinator, if you glance at it, it
will be centered 100% of the time without you even thinking about it."

Practice up high. that way, down low, you just do.

I say Practice Stalls because that forces you to make sure you are
coordinated.

as far as crosswind, i did not see that he said anything special about
crosswinds in the original post.
******************************
Patrick W. Sencenich
__|__
*---o--(_)--o---*

"I am NOT 30... i am 24.95 plus shipping and handling."

>..During landing it is Very important to keep that ball centered<<<

I just got back from a trip, and read this entire thread. What a CROCK! In
fact almost all good landings are made with the ball NOT in the center.

The ONLY time the ball will be in the center on landing is when the wind is
DIRECTLY down the runway. Since that virtually NEVER happens, the vast
majority of landings will be in a slip or coming out of a crab. Both will
result in an un-coordinated touch down, which is completely normal, desired,
safe, and required of all pilots everywhere, in any airplane (except an
aircoupe, Cessna 180, or B-52 with castering wheels), large or small.

BTW who would ever be looking at the ball?

Karl


"Patrick w. Sencenich" > wrote in message
...
> as my CFI told me over and over again -
> "GET ON THE BALL!"
> in reference to the turn coordinator
>
> I ran into the same problem.
>
> now in a right rudder aircraft, when you take all the power out before
> touchdown, the prop is still rotating and you still have some
> p-factor, torque, etc.
>
> During landing it is Very important to keep that ball centered. When
> the CFI is not yelling at you every time the ball gets too close to
> the line does not mean that it is any less important.
>
> 1. stalling above the runway is scarey enough without the added
> troubes caused by being uncoordinated
>
> 2. your wheels hate being side loaded and will one day rebel.
>
> you say "Almost Immediatly" which tells me that you are touching down
> uncoordinated.
>
> to work on this habit, and this worked for me.....
>
> Go up to 7500 feet and practice stalls. lots and lots of stalls, Power
> on and power off. keeping special watch on that turn coordinator.
> soon, you will notice that when you are landing, paying attention to
> the things other then the Turn Coordinator, if you glance at it, it
> will be centered 100% of the time without you even thinking about it.
>
>
>
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:04:19 -0400, "Karl Treier" >
> spoketh unto us:
>
> >OK so 4 or so flight hours after attaining my PPL, I find a problem i
don't
> >recall experiencing during flight training at all. Hoping for some
insight
> >or maybe i'll consider a few recurrent hours with my CFI.
> >
> >Anyway basically the problem is that I land straight (or so I think) and
> >almost immediately after touchdown I start to veer to the left
> >(disconcerting for passengers), now on LUK's 150ft wide runway no problem
I
> >get it back on centerline but i'm concerned about thi.s happening on a
75ft
> >or narrower runway.
> >
> >
>
> ******************************
> Patrick W. Sencenich
> __|__
> *---o--(_)--o---*
>
> "I am NOT 30... i am 24.95 plus shipping and handling."